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iKON and Winner will never make it 'big' big

Discussion in 'K-POP' started by nothingbutfacts, Oct 14, 2018.

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Do you think ikon/winner will every become 'big' big?

  1. yes

    22 vote(s)
    29.3%
  2. no

    32 vote(s)
    42.7%
  3. depends

    21 vote(s)
    28.0%
  1. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    [repost from https://www.allkpop.com/forum/threa...er-make-it-big-big.235659/page-2#post-3806887 thanks to @NIKKIEF 's advice]

    Hear me out:

    Both groups are pretty damn talented. While not all members are excellent, in both groups they have music producers, good vocalists and amazing rappers. Ikon is better at the dancing part than Winner, but Winner isn't bad. Not to mention, they're both from YG. They deserve a lot more attention and credit that they currently receive, but unfortunately, I believe they may never get it.

    Let's start in the beginning: Newer fans may not remember, but IKON and Winner had some of the most successful debuts of all time in kpop. If I remember correctly, Ikon even managed a rookie grand slam, which is fancy way of saying they won Rookie of the Year in all the award shows that year. They had a huge following after their survival programmes - it's what enabled IKON to debut despite losing - and they released decent music right off the bat. They were literally on the road to becoming as popular - if not more popular - than bands like Wannaone and Got7.

    So what happened?

    1. The fan wars
    - He took 'Empty', a song BI wrote after losing Win, and forced it onto Winner.
    --> ikonics were pissed because it BI had to watch another group break records with his song
    --> Incles were pissed because Winner had to debut with a song that wasn't even theirs

    - In 2017 Winner hit it big with Really Really and ikon kind of flopped with Bling Bling. What happened? Winner was awarded with varieties and more comebacks and ikon was completely ignored
    - in 2018 the tables turned and iKON hit it bit with Love Scenario while Winner didn't do as well with Everyday. What happened? iKON was awarded with varieties and comebacks and Winner is being completely ignored.
    - Just this year he's already caused controversies by using ikon's hashtag to promote winner's concert, and playing a VCR of ikon during Winner's concert

    - the company also never acted when extreme fans on both sides pulled dirty tricks. Some toxic ikonics were literally exposed for sabotaging Winner's comeback by hacking Winner's fan sites, but YG just pretended it didn't happen.

    Instead of promoting the groups side by side and capitalising on a strong, combined fanbase, YG's thoughtless actions - everything from his blatant favouritism to ikon from the very beginning to his randomly creating MOBB before giving Bobby the solo album he EARNED after SMTM - fuelled hatred between the two fandoms. This makes both groups vulnerable. Despite being from the same company, and despite the members being friends, Incles are the first to call ikon flops and vice versa.

    2. The inconsistency
    Again, I remind you of how amazing their debuts were. My Type had more than 800k unique listeners, and Empty was widely lauded as one of the best debut songs ever released. Their music sold amazingly as well. However, because YG seems to be only capable of managing one group at a time, he was so focussed on BIGBANG that he completely neglected IKON and Winner. This meant that the groups toured extensively without releasing any new music, and this inevitably dissolved the fandom. After almost a year of no news, wouldn't you lose interest? I know I would.

    At least iKON got to complete the New Kids series. I'm still pissed that the EXIT project was axed for no good reason.

    And what happened to MOBB? He said MOBB would never die and yet Bobby unfollowed Mino on Instagram and that's where it stands now.

    3. The disregard for social media
    I get it, YG artists are 'mysterious' and need to lurk in the shadows. But Gdragon is the most followed korean idol on Instagram...that should have been a clue for YG. Groups that are popular now like BTS and Got7 mastered the art of using social media to communicate with fans. They filmed vlogs and did Vlives and posted on Instagram...everything to engage fans. Meanwhile, IKON and Winner had virtually no social media presence. They barely interacted with fans and YG only very recently let them create SNS to communicate with fans.

    In my opinion...it's a bit too late for them. Their fandom size is small, and so late into their career (3 years and counting) it's unlikely they'll get a huge influx of fans. Even if they release back to back hits - like ikon actually did this year - fans may trickle in but it won't be a lot. And this is sad, because like I said, these groups really deserve a lot of recognition.

    What do you think?

    [summary of discussion from there: people seem to generally have hope that the fandoms will continue to grow slowly. They agree that the main market of teenage girls is pretty saturated and hard to break into. Some are content with the current fandom sizes, and say it's even preferable to a massive fandom. Others worry that the debut of YG's new boy group will spell trouble for ikon and winner]
     
    jimeous, stylishcrab, asuka16 and 4 others like this.
  2. ThenewbieofKpop

    ThenewbieofKpop Trainee

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  3. NIKKIEF

    NIKKIEF Public Figure

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    And i'm posting it again...
    YGE and Yang Hyun Suk
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Dreamer95

    Dreamer95 Celebrity

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    BI is one of those composers who constanly compose similar songs. You can say that Empty is his song, cause the structure is the same as My Type and Love Scenario.
     
  5. mayaknows

    mayaknows Trainee

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    iKON is think is building themselves up! They're very different from many k-pop bands. Bling-bling didn't work because it didn't represent them to me. Their mix of ballads and hip-hop is what get's them the numbers. But I think it just depends on your target lol. WINNER and iKON make pretty mature songs. I wouldn't be surprised if their regular listeners (if you take out LS) would be around college students ages or teens.
     
    magito and nothingbutfacts like this.
  6. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    ...you're trolling, right?
    ...you didn't actually add up those numbers and arrive at 8 million?

    If they were this good I don't think YG would be giving them cardboard boxes for sets.
     
    #6 nothingbutfacts, Oct 14, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  7. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    Mm...he seems to have a sound he likes, but he's actually quite versatile. It's just that his alternative works like Bling Bling, B'Day, One and Only didn't really chart well.

    Did you see his work on Whistle, Born Hater and Be I? They're quite different and were all pretty successful.
     
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  8. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    I agree. And older stans don't bring the same level of crazy obsession younger ones do.

    They are different from conventional bads, Winner too (although their last couple of releases haven't done it for me). Hence I wish they get more recognition.
     
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  9. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    Always a mood.
     
    NIKKIEF likes this.
  10. OHNANAIDONTRECAl

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    Let me just say that the fact that YG basically sabotaged his own groups and they’re still doing as well as they’re doing says a lot. I wouldn’t be worried about their popularity. They would easily be more “popular” if YG would stop being so complacent but that’s not going to happen because YG is YG. He has a certain way that he operates and they are still making bank so he doesn’t care about new fans. they don’t need them. They still have a bigger fanbase than most groups not BTS Exo and wanna one and I would definitely put them up there with Got7 (especially since Got7 didn’t always chart the best until recently)
     
  11. Yuckfire

    Yuckfire Trainee

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    Didn't Ikon have one of the biggest hits of the year and winner had one of the biggest of last year?
     
  12. mayaknows

    mayaknows Trainee

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    Agreed :). I think they might have to aim for sexiness for the next concept and go the BIGBANG route, or BI has to produce a song that literally everyone can sing again (LOSER is a great one). WINNER's Everyday from them just sounded so generic for me, and it sounded like it's for American fans. They're another group that make end up to taking the American popularity route.

    But we also have to remember their fandom is not batshit crazy for recognition like BTS or EXO.
     
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  13. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    I'm surprised you put them up there with Got7. The thing is within Korea I think iKON and Got7 have pretty comparable, relatively small fanbases, but with iKON generally making more public-friendly music. However Got7 has a massive international fandom that I don't think iKON can currently compete with. Helps that Got7 has 3 charismatic international members.

    I agree though. For YG to essentially try and poison them and them to come out with Really Really and Love Scenario...talent.
     
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  14. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    See that's the thing: both those songs were soooo famous and people immediately equated it to massive popularity.

    But those songs got rocketed into success because they were streamed by the public, not by fans. You can tell pretty easily - both songs sort of plateaued right after dropping, but then outperformed other songs in terms of longevity (especially LS, which was a sleeper hit so called). By comparison groups with huge fandoms are able to immediately dominate all the charts and maintain that for a week or so, before essentially plunging in the charts if the song isn't all that great.

    And the fact is they do have relatively small fandoms.
     
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  15. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    I agree. I think iKON is on the right path, as long as they bring an end to the break up song era and come out with something iconic. Loser is a great example.

    Everyday just didn't do it for me. I was disappointed because Winner has previously shown what they're capable of - Sentimental, Don't Flirt, Fool - and yet for some reason they produced a tropical shithouse song.

    I guess I wouldn't actually want them to have a fandom like Army,........I'd rather small fandom than irritatingly toxic.
     
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  16. choi_yuna_bias

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    WINNER is trying to regain foothold after a hiatus worth of 2 years which is basically half of their career. I do think they gained more fans after their revival with Really Really because their latest album is their best selling yet. Their physical sales were on a steady decline ever since. 2014 S/S sold 90k, EXIT: E - 80k, Fate Number For - 60k, Our Twenty For - 50k (their lowest yet) and then suddenly Everyday sold 120k.

    I'm gonna be honest and say that musically, 2018 is not their best year but surprisingly enough, they are the most active this year. You're wrong for saying that they were not awarded varieties this year for not doing exceptionally well because they've been in a lot of varieties actually. Awarded is the wrong word to use because they're not getting it because of YG but because of themselves and they got invited to more than 20 music festivals this year, getting big CF deals and became ambassadors for Korea's Ministry of Culture. The only thing they lack this year are comebacks (where is it YG? :mad:)
     
  17. OHNANAIDONTRECAl

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    Maybe it was because the song was good as well as their fandom though. They may seem to have a relatively small fandom but they probably just target a diffeeent market so their fans are not as loud but they still support in streaming. Bling Bling didn’t do as well as their other songs but it still charted decently when you compare it to other groups that can’t even chart in the top 100, so obviously their fandom is big enough to prop them up to an extent.
     
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  18. deluded

    deluded Newbie

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    i said it a couple times already
    it's not just the discography or whatever, but the members
    bigbang was really active on variety shows and loved by the korean. daesung was even a fixed member in family outing (equivalent running man for now)
    and one of the reason blackpink got that big because the members attract so many fans and really good at being a socialite (just look at their followers)

    while ikon and winner just don't have that member who could attract many fans
    kinda like gd, jimin, jungkook, sana, lisa, jennie, etc etc
    they actually have enough hits to put them on top
     
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  19. choi_yuna_bias

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    Winner has Mino. There's a really big gap in followers between Mino and the rest of the group but I get what you mean.
     
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  20. nothingbutfacts

    nothingbutfacts Trainee

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    Oof, I was unfamiliar with those numbers. I'm happy for them. I'm pretty sure iKON has thankfully followed the same pattern since Return. Continue had pretty good first day sales if I remember correctly.

    How could 2018 have been a good year with ONE comeback? Just because it didn't peak like Really Really was no reason to punish them...I'm also not too happy that Mino's solo is expected to drop in November, the same time as all the digital and physical monsters. That's some great planning right there.

    I'm sorry for the oversight about the varieties. What I meant was programmes like Weekly Idol, Idol Room etc. but I realise those are linked with comebacks. Mino is on New Journey to the West and Hoon is a judge on Dancing High, right? But those varieties...they literally got those for themselves lol. I heard the PDs approached them and asked them to join, and YG just did charity by agreeing to it. Not like YG is going out of his way to give them more exposure...
     
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