Do you prefer playing masculine video games or feminine video games

Discussion in 'Video Games & Tech' started by Pirinee, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. ChoIzanami

    ChoIzanami Newbie

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    So.. you wanna say it's too complicated for girls to like it?
    I never considered the difficulty or complexity of a game as a factor for it beeing more female or more masculine, to be honest. More of a factor for seeing it as an "Beginners" game rather than an "core gamers title".
     
  2. StCatMouse

    StCatMouse Rookie

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    No. Here's my original reply to this thread:
    I was asking how it's a "soft" game considering the complexity of it's system. The FF franchise in general isn't beginner-friendly unless you at least have some inkling on how traditional JRPGs work.

    Never in my reply I implied soft = feminine.
     
    #42 StCatMouse, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  3. ChoIzanami

    ChoIzanami Newbie

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    But what has beeing a "soft game" to do with difficulty or with beeing beginner-friendly?
    With "soft" I mean that it strains away from exessive violence, blood, sexual content, bad language or criminal content. I wouldn't consider a Resident Evil title as a "soft game" although they're far more straigth and easy to understand than "Fire Emblem", which would be a more "softer" game in my opinion. Of course, you do fight in this game, but you don't see intestines beeing ripped out or characters dieing in a pool of blood.
     
  4. StCatMouse

    StCatMouse Rookie

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    To quote:
    Final Fantasy is gameplay-driven. Same with Fire Emblem. These are heavy systems-based games. Permadeath is even part of FE's identity until recently where they soften it a bit but still.

    Halo has no blood nor sexual content and as far as language is concerned, it's PG by today's standard and yet I wouldn't call that a soft game wouldn't you agree. Dragon Ball FighterZ do not have any of that as well but I don't think a hardcore anime fighter can be considered soft considering the skill ceiling for a player to actually be good at it (and it is gameplay-driven).
     
  5. JYJ_noona

    JYJ_noona Newbie

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    define masculine or feminine games :annoyedk:
     
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  6. ChoIzanami

    ChoIzanami Newbie

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    No, I don't agree. I think, Final Fantasy, like most RPGs, is very story-driven. The focus of these games lies on the incredible world building, the versatile characters and their background as well as a very complex, very interesting and again extremly versatile Battle System. Before XII this system was very indirect due to the ATB-system, as in the form of "Tell Character A to hit enemy and hope for a Crit" insteadt of "Press A to hit enemy and master timing to crit". These games don't rely on a perfectly working camera, precise controls and flashy "finishing move" animations, because the story is what carries these games and it's usually bloody awesome. If you cut the parts where you control the characters and just attach the cutscenes to one another it would be a great movie. You yourself used the term "system-based" for them. They are. Your options are amazing, but you as a player are not relying on mastering the weapon, the character does that. And you can reduce fighting to a minimum if you want to. Random encounters can be fled and there are categories for Low% Runs through these games (that are really entertaining).

    And Permadeath is still a thing in Fire Emblem. Yes, you can turn it off, but who does? xD
    But again, you don't fight the fights in Fire Emblem. It has an incredible strategic battle system, because you have to consider positioning, the weapon triangle, the class, the Crit-Rate... it's a hell of a lot to do. But you don't swing the sword. Edelgard does. And again, what's the main focus of the game is the story. Is the developement of characters and their relations. And yes, it's gameplay concept is what sets it apart from other RPGs (hence it's often called a "Strategy RPG"), but that isn't making it any more rough.

    So these games aren't really relying on their gameplay. They're hard. No doubt about that. But I wouldn't consider them gameplay-driven, especially not compared to some games, that are heavily gameplay-driven out there. Like Fortnite. I would also consider it "Community-driven" maybe, but take the gameplay out and what's left? A background story that is deep and interesting... Well, not in my opinion ^^'
    And at least I don't play Final Fantasy mainly because of the ATB. I play it for the story.


    I actually would consider Halo a more soft game xD
    Of course it has the military background and the direct controls as you are actually fighting the fight yourself (thank God FPS games don't have to worry about camera controls), but it doesn't tick a lot of the other boxes, like violence for example. And it's also very story-driven with literally a huge universe behind it (The older books are fantastic, if I might say so). Of course not the playable character, as 117 is quite flat and uninteresting, but there are a lot of characters in there, that are more focused on than the actual war. (We love you, Keyes)

    When I validate a game, be it about beeing more "soft" or "rough", "Beginnerfriendly" or "Hardcore Gamer Stuff", "good" or "bad", I never only consider one category. "It has a gun in there, so it's a hard game". That's not it. There's always a list of stuff, that needs to be considered and the sum of that builts the result. Like everywhere. And like everywhere there are cases that are not definite.
    So while Halo definitly isn't a "soft" game, it isn't a "hard" game either. More like mushroom consistency maybe. It's in the middle and I consider it a very good First Shooter for people, who don't have much experience with FPS games yet.
    Is it a more "masculine" or more "feminine" game? Hard to tell. It might be both. "Masculine" aspects might be the whole Sci-Fi-Military-Evil-Alien-Invasion set-up with all these different weapons and the rewards for landing a headshot. But the background stories, the slightly developing relations between the main cast and of course Cortana might also be seen as more "feminine".
    Same goes for Fighting Games. They are incredibly strategic, demanding and active and some are even lacking a cohesive background story alltogether. (Like Storymodes in Dead or Alive 5... Oh Gosh) But they're neither hard nor soft, but maybe more "masculine" (Just because smacking one another up isn't something considered very "feminine" in society).
    Maybe with the exeption of Mortal Combat because MC is using exessive violence to stand out from the "crowd" of other Fighting games. But I would never consider any Smash Bros. Title to be a "hard" game.

    But now we've strain so far from the actual topic of this thread, I want to apologize to everyone else. *bow*
    This thread is about "masculine" and "feminine" games, not "hard" or "soft" games.
    So I will join JYJ_yoonas request for a more precise definition of "masculine" and "feminine" ^^'
     
  7. StCatMouse

    StCatMouse Rookie

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    Being story-driven and gameplay-driven are not mutually exclusive. A game can be both or one or the other. It's not a zero-sum game. Dark Souls have a deep lore told in an environmental-storytelling fashion and deep combat and RPG mechanics. You can have great story while having complex system running in the back end.

    RPGs in general are gameplay-driven. How do you think the crits, the buffs, the stats, the RNGs, and the rest of the systems are all calculated? They are computed in the background. There are logic tables running as you choose what weapons you will use, your group composition, your stats or even your dialogue choices. Imagine how would you be able to min/max if there are no computations enabling those? Multiple systems running in the back end. Just imagine how a traditional pen-and-paper RPG work and you get a very basic gist of how these things are made. Again, having a story and good art direction does not mean you can't have a good system implemented to make it all work. I would stress again those aren't mutually exclusive.

    And this is exactly my point. The line keeps getting pushed. There's nothing definitive. So how can one be said to be either ''soft'' or ''rough'' if the criteria is all over the place?

    "Oh, this X game ticks these boxes but then it doesn't have Y but compared to A game or the Z genre, it has these things so it must be soft/rough/or whatever I can come up with in between"

    No we didn't stray. The implication of having a feminine or masculine games is within bounds of what we are discussing. And why are you apologizing for having an on-topic discussion about games on a thread about, well, games?
     
    #47 StCatMouse, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  8. ChoIzanami

    ChoIzanami Newbie

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    I think your definition of "gameplay" might be different from mine.
    All this calculation in the background is a games system, it's "engine", but not it's gameplay. For me "Gameplay" means "the way the game plays" not "the way the game performs". It means how precise it's controlling is. How the character reacts to the controls you put in (Or if he controls like a car like Harry does). How big delay is between pushing a button and fulfilling the action. How precise can my control stick make Nathan jump of this rock? Can I climb this wall or are the controls not direct enough and I'll fall? Can I position my crossfade perfectly or will it sway because the controlstick feels like it's sitting ontop of soap?
    Crits, Stats, RNG,... none of that is "Gameplay". All of that is the game's system. It's the games heart. Games can have a great engine behind it, a very interesting and well thought out damage system, a high calculation rate, great graphics and animations but can have a terrible gameplay and be "unplayable" because of wacky controls, high delay or an overall badly concepted fighting system. That doesn't mean the game has problems calculating stats. It means you can't walk in a straight line because the inputs are not received the way they should. And it also includes the style of the "Play", so the Battle system itself. Not it's performance. ATB would be a gameplay aspect. But the system behind it I wouldn't consider as "Gameplay".
    This whole calculation thing I would refer to as engine or perfomance. Like the Unreal-Engine. How fast and in what way does the game calculate damage? What parameters does it include in it's calculation? Does it have pop-ups? Are there slow-downs? How do the loading times add up? How is my RNG determined? Will this random encounter spawn this time or not? How smooth does my camera shift between 3D and 2D? (Hedgehog engine, what are you doing?)
    But that's not Gameplay to me. That's why I refer to Final Fantasy as a non-Gameplay-driven game. Because it doesn't need the controls to be perfect. I don't climb a wall or need this jump to be precise. It doesn't ruin my day if I can't aim correctly. It's not that kind of game.

    Well, if you go by that, nothing in this world is ever certain, right? What's blue then? There might be a bit more yellow in it, so how can one say it's blue?
    For me, the criteria is not "all over the place". I know my standarts. And I never said "Game X is like that so it must be hard". You kept asking for my opinion and that's all I gave. I never said that anyone would have to see it that way and that my definition is ultimate. That's why I keep writing the words "for me" or "I would". And you also asked if I would agree that Halo is a "hard" game. Not if everyone in the world would do so. Maybe for some people Halo is a "hard" game. It's not for me. I saw Gears and cut a Monster in half with a chainsaw. That's "hard" to me. If you're interested, I would give you the criteria I go after. But you never asked for it.


    I think we strayed a lot. Because our discussion is not about a game beeing "feminine" or "masculine" anymore. You asked me why I see certain games as "hard" or "soft" in my perspective and try to convince me that my perspective is wrong. Don't ask for it then xD
    We are neither talking about "masculine" or "feminine" games, nor are we including the person, that actually started the thread. And we are certainly not discussing what a "feminine" or "masculine" game is in his or her criteria, as this person has not given them yet. All we have are some examples, that are... quite non-respresentative compared to the sample size, beeing the sheer amount of games, genres, subgenres, crossovers etc. there are out there.

    Are "masculine" games only games that are clearly aimed at men? Like "Leasure Suit Larry"? Are "feminine" games all cutesy and peaceful like "Animal Crossing"? And is a girl playing a "masculine" game making it "feminine"? Or does that make the girl more "masculine", when she likes to run people over in "GTA Online"?
     
  9. StCatMouse

    StCatMouse Rookie

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    By your definition then games are gameplay-driven by virtue of the precision of its controls. So if by any chance, the game feels floaty by way of it's controls, it's not gameplay-driven?

    You missed my point unfortunately. Of course, it's engine-based. How else would you create the game? The point I was driving is RPGs are gameplay-driven because unlike, say, an FPS where most of the logic is based of whether you would shoot or not, jump or not, crouch or not, switch weapons, move in whatever direction, (and that's it if I'm being general), RPGs actually requires more involvement from the player. Inventory management, stat management, and whatever else system the developers would throw in. That's not because of the engine, that's part of the gameplay mechanics. You aren't just climbing or shooting or swinging or whatever. You actively manage those. It's not left to the machinations of the engine nor is it tied to the engine's performance. Regardless whether an RPG is buggy or not, you are going to manage your stats, inventory, etc.

    Hold up, so by that definition games like Civilization, Crusader Kings, or Europa Universalis, aren't gameplay-driven then?

    Except we're not talking about colors now are we?

    Yes and I am challenging your opinion, that's how discussion goes. Just because something's an opinion or a particular perspective doesn't absolve it from being questioned.

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything just to be clear. That's a foolhardy task if the internet has thought me anything. Again, perspectives can be challenged. We put our thoughts out there in an open forum, it sometimes yield a discussion. So why have it, if you are wondering then? People can still have a discussion about things they disagree and be amicable and explore why they differ. I'm not pursuing this as something like a gotcha but because I'm having difficulty seeing it from your perspective.

    Per the discussion it's within the parameters of the original post and even in the spirit of the subsequent ones so I don't see it as straying.

    The thread starter can butt in at anytime. Neither of us can force or obligate the OP to do it. Just like you and me, we can opt out of this discussion at any time if we so choose. No skin off my back. But I do choose to stick around.
     
  10. ChoIzanami

    ChoIzanami Newbie

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    Ok, let me put it simple.
    The opposite of "Gameplay-driven" for me is "Story-driven" or "Strategy-driven".
    These things don't exclude each other. A game can have a good and unique gameplay, but still be story-driven, and a game can focus on story, but still be Gameplay-driven. How good the story or gameplay is, is not important. That just flows into the overall ranking of the game. A gameplay-driven game with very bad gameplay is a great idea ;)

    If you have a game and take out one aspect, would the game still work without it?
    Most FPS games have a background story, but you can take it out and still have tons of fun with it, like their Online-Modi and games like Fortnite and most MOBA proof. (Or most fighting games xD)
    Yes, there might be a foreign country/race that wants to kill you and you have to work through different missions to save the world because you're Team America, but if the mission wouldn't be "Kill Goldfinger to save England" but just "Kill Person X" it would still be the same. Maybe you enjoy Goldfingers plot and your storyline, even if it has more holes in it's plot than swiss cheese, but it's not, what makes the game good.

    But take out the story, sidequests and world building of Final Fantasy X and what's left? A tournament of Blitzball maybe? And some strange creatures that you somehow have to kill. And a battle system that was used in 9 games before that and has not been majorly revelutionised since. It would just get very boring very fast. (Like FIFA, every games the same, there's just another player on the cover)
    So the Gameplay is not what the game depens on to unleash it's full potential, the story is. So that's why I would see it as story-driven. Even if it's story is like hella confusing xD

    And yes, there are games that are both. These games are usually some of the best games out there, in my eyes of course. Because they can capture both sorts of players: Those that love their good stories, their character developement and those that don't care and just need some easy relaxation without having to think too much about what they do. I'd consider Dark Souls one of these games: It has an incredible lore, but you have to take your time and search for it. It doesn't get served to you on a silver tablet. You can play the whole game and literaly get none of it and still have fun with it. And you can play the whole game searching for the story and outrun most of the monsters except for the bosses and you will still enjoy it greatly. Maybe Souls-like games are a tiny bit more gameplay-driven just because their battle system is what made them so famous, but that's not really a great splash here.

    And no, I don't rank by genre. Not all RPGs are Story-driven, for example. And beeing story-driven doesn't equal "soft" automatically.

    No, we're not, that was just an example xD
    The line gets pushed by everything, yeah. But the way you put it, it sound like we should not define anything as anything, because the line will always be pushed and if it can't be pushed in order to title something"soft" or "hard", "good" or "bad", "blue" or "yellow", we will never be able to define anything xD


    Well, I surely feels like it. Or were all my explanations that strange, that you still can't actually see anything? Because "I see/understand, but" was not used. It feels more like "This is the general thing, why do you see that differently?" xD
    So what's a "masculine" game in your eyes? And what game would you see more "feminine"? And why? Would you rate games individually or more generally?
     
    #50 ChoIzanami, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  11. StCatMouse

    StCatMouse Rookie

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    As I have already mentioned earlier.
    False equivalence. We are talking about gaming. That analogy would only work if there is somehow some correlation between gaming and color. Unless we are both knowledgeable on the science of color, neither of us can speak in-depth or even truthfully about the subject. One argument doesn't equally encompass every other argument. Analogies aren't one-size-fits-all. That's also a straw man by the way. Never did I present nor argue about the definition of color or what constitute bad or good. You are moving the goal post by way of your example.

    Why would I say "I see/understand but" when I don't? I would just be misleading you if I did. And why would I imply "This is the general thing, why do you see that differently?", what general consensus am I appealing to? Argumentum Ad Populum is a fallacious argument.

    I've already answered this before.

     
    #51 StCatMouse, Sep 26, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2019
  12. avensis

    avensis Newbie

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    I do not think there are male and female video games, for me this question does not mean anything.

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    #52 avensis, Oct 2, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  13. Marthalee

    Marthalee Newbie

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    I enjoy both playing Sims series and Call of Duty. This thread is stupid.
     
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  14. GDXT

    GDXT Public Figure

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    both <3
     
  15. shybn

    shybn Rookie

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